Re: R: Bonzo's drumming is boring

[Phil Humpherys <philh@xxxxxxxxx>]

Thus spake Bill Shaw (wes@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) 
on Tue, Nov 11, 1997 at 11:45:51AM -0700:

> I am not saying that Bonham isn't infuential (note the tense).
> Many drummers try to copy Bonham's style.  I would like to see
> the study done to see which rock drummers give Bonham as their
> inspiration.  I beleive that among drummer I know more would
> state Keith Moon, than Bonham.

I would likewise like to see a study done.  I don't share your
confidence that more would say Moon.

> I need to clarify this.  With out Ringo Star the only
> influences on drummers were jazz and blues.  He started an era
> of drumming (easy drumming that any garage band could play).  I
> personally haven't heard of any jazz bands starting in a
> garage.  Ringo made drumming available to anyone who could keep
> a beat.  Most early rock is mediocre drumming by today's
> standards.

So....  we agree that he was the first?  Hmm... maybe.
Interesting your comment about Ringo being able to keep a beat.
That is *precisely* how he got the job.  You'll recall that Pete
Best was The Beatles' first drummer, and George Martin (Beatles'
producer) states on record that he replaced Pete with Ringo
because Ringo could keep a beat and Pete couldn't.

Talk about fortuitous!

> > However, Moon's "staying power" was
> > slight, and by 1971 he achieved the most he ever would as a
> > drummer and for the 7 years that remained in his life he never
> > even came close to what he laid down on the "Tommy" and "Who's
> > Next" albums, and quite franky left a lot to be desired.  Even
> > Quadrophenia ('73) noticeably lacks the powerhouse drumming of
> > Moon's earlier work.  This is all due of course to Moon's
> > destructive abuse of alcohol.

> Bonham's alcoholism affected his drumming as well his best
> drumming is on the first two albums.

Not so.  This is in fact a noticeable difference between the two
is that Bonham was still playing brilliantly as late as In
Through the Outdoor (1979, Zeppelin's last studio album).  This
is in fact why I brought up the point about staying power.  If
you think that Bonham's best is their first two albums then you
haven't listened to the others enough.  :) Seriously...  while I
do think that too much attention is drawn to their 4th album,
it's impossible to dismiss it as a brilliant album, and this is
much in part due to Bonham's playing.  Black Dog, Rock and Roll,
Stairway To Heaven (well, the last three minutes or so of it :),
Four Sticks (aptly named, Bonham played with four drum sticks),
and of course, When The Levee Breaks.  Heck, I've practically
listed every track in the album.

On The Crunge (from Houses of the Holy, their 5th album), Bonham
changes time signatures some 32 times (so I've read, I can't
count them all myself but there are definitely several).  The Song
Remains The Same is also on that album.  There's Physical
Grafiti...  (their 6th) and Presence (their 7th)....

I could go on....  while Bonham's personal life and health
definitely deteriorated as a result of drinking, his playing most
definitely did not.  I just have to flat-out disagree with you on
that one.

> I am curious as to what perspectives would not be on Peart's resume.

Speed, power.  While "technical finesse" is Peart's forte, he
certainly doesn't lack speed and power...  and in the same
fashion, Bonham by no means lacks "technical finesse".  Bonham
was a very good technician.  See what I'm saying?

> > > But his main influences were jazz not rock and RUSH has
> > > developed their own style of music.
> >
> > Rush certainly has their own style... but it's definitely rock.
> > Zeppelin was the most dynamic rock group of all time, playing
> > anything from regee (D'yer Maker) to country (Hot Dog) to Salsa
> > (South Bound Suarez) making all stops in between.  But, Zeppelin
> > is still a rock band.  Likewise for Rush.
> >
> 
> The same can be said of Van Halen, big band (Big Bad Bill), dixie (Women
> and Children First),  western (Happy Trails).  

Happy Trails isn't theirs, they were just having fun, and trying
to come up with something to fill up an LP.  Diver Down (the
album which contains Happy Trails) has at least three covers that
I know of...  Dancin' in the Streets, Pretty Woman (Orbison), and
Happy Trails.

Gene Autry and Roy Rogers did Happy Trails, and that's not even a
serious song.  You can hear Roth cracking up inbetween the verse
and chorus when they're trying to resync the count...  come on.

Seems to me that in 1983, VH were a little short of being able to
write good songs.  Diver Down also has two instrumentals which
you know Eddie recorded all by himself probably at 3 in the
morning.  Diver Down, while maybe entertaining, is not an
inspiring album at all....  and hardly dynamic.

> And most stops in between as well.

While you showed two examples of VH's attempts of expanding their
music, you won't convince me that they're anywhere near
Zeppelin's quality.  Most of VH's music sounds very very similar.
Do you really dispute this?  They were at their most dynamic (and
overall best) with Roth...  but they still paled compared to
Zeppelin.

> Many other "rock" groups play all kinds of music.  Tull, The
> Stones.  Squirrel Nut Zippers.

Well, this entire discussion is almost all subjection anyway...
but I would emphatically state that none of the bands you list
above are dynamic at all.  Certainly not the Stones.  And I can't
accept that Tull is anywhere near as dynamic.  I can't speak for
Squirrel Nut Zippers because I've never heard of them.  I have
heard of Zeppelin however.

> Zepplin was a great band but I don't follow the argument for
> the most dynamic.

Well, I guess I will fail to convince you then...  you mentioned
that you wanted to get that Zeppelin boxed set that I have.  You
really should sometime, because then you could take a weekend or
two and listen objectively to their entire body of work and you'd
know what I mean.  You'd be amazed at what they can play.
 
> > >  Hell, Micheal Lee is as good as Bonham ever was.
> 
> This was to make the closing arguement to be a great drummer you have to
> create not just play.  Lee can play all of Bonham's stuff but he is not
> considered a great.

Oh...  well, I've never heard Lee play those 64th notes on Good
Times Bad Times (with one kick drum), but that's besides the
point...  I thought your initial statement (see above) was just a
tad bold.

- -- 
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