Re: R: Bonzo's drumming is boring

[Phil Humpherys <philh@xxxxxxxxx>]

Thus spake Bill Shaw (wes@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) 
on Tue, Nov 11, 1997 at 10:41:41AM -0700:

> Gentlemen,
>     To each his own Bonham was a very influential drummer and
> quite fast, but I would have to agree that he is not the best
> rock drummer ever nor is he the most influential rock drummer.

I have to call you on a contradiction here.  "The Best" rock
drummer is pure subjection...  and there is always bias for
personal tastes.  Objectively, there's simply no question that
Bonham is _one_ of the most influential drummers in rock.  This is
undisputable.  Countless drummers in rock give Bonham as their
chief inspiration.  By definition, that's *influential*.

> The two are actually quite different.

No arguement.  I believe I stated this in my previous.

> Unfortunately the most influential rock drummer was Ringo Star
> (obviously not the best but he created rock drumming.)

Whether Starkey *created* rock drummering is another debate...
but even if he did, that doesn't make him the most influential.

> I would put Keith Moon as more influential than Bonham.

I disagree.  I mean, to become definitive, we would need to make
a serious study of this and determine among a subset of rock
artists who play drums, who inspired them.

Re: Moon.  He evolutionized rock percussion...  no question (as
Bonham and Peart would do after him).  Moon was not a technical
wizard by any means, but he played with passion that is
unmatched.  The constant fills were his trademark, and had never
really been done before.  However, Moon's "staying power" was
slight, and by 1971 he achieved the most he ever would as a
drummer and for the 7 years that remained in his life he never
even came close to what he laid down on the "Tommy" and "Who's
Next" albums, and quite franky left a lot to be desired.  Even
Quadrophenia ('73) noticeably lacks the powerhouse drumming of
Moon's earlier work.  This is all due of course to Moon's
destructive abuse of alcohol.

But he certainly established his mark in the late 60's and early
70's.  

> Peart is very influential and is probably the most technically
> correct drummer of all time.

Peart is a technical wizard...  that's *his* forte, and it's what
he's known for.  He took full advantage of the sound technology
that became available at the dawn of the 80's, and he's made his
mark.  I AM A FAN OF PEART (sorry for shouting) and I strongly
appreciate him as a drummer (as well as a lyrisist...  Rush would
be quite average (maybe only slightly better than average)
without him...  can anyone say Rutsy?  :)

Having said that...  there are perspectives into rock drumming
that wouldn't be on Peart's resume, so to speak...  and it is
those perspectives that allow for others to have claim to being
among The Greats in rock drumming.  Bill mentioned speed...  and
yes, there are many drummers who by virtue of being born with
efficient twitch fiber, can throw those sticks remarkably fast.
There are also several other perspectives, and this goes without
saying I think.

> But his main influences were jazz not rock and RUSH has
> developed their own style of music.

Rush certainly has their own style... but it's definitely rock.
Zeppelin was the most dynamic rock group of all time, playing
anything from regee (D'yer Maker) to country (Hot Dog) to Salsa
(South Bound Suarez) making all stops in between.  But, Zeppelin
is still a rock band.  Likewise for Rush.

> Yes, thier first album was influenced highly by Led but Peart
> was not the drummer for the first album.

No argument.  I note that you show that Zeppelin inspired even
Rush.  This isn't disputable (nor is it shameful :)  Even today
if you asked Geddy or Alex who inspired them, they'd say Cream
and Zeppelin.  I've likewise read that Peart was inspired by jazz
drumming (Rich)...

>     Bonham was a great drummer but he wasn't the best ever
> since time still exists for some new hot shot drummer to show
> up.

I stated in my previous that I would never claim with conclusion
that one was better than the other.  It is in no way my position
that Bonham is quantitatively *better* than Peart or Moon or
Copeland or whoever else (and I would insist that the converse is
likewise true...  that Peart is not conclusively nor
quantitatively *better* than Bonham or ther Greats).  I *do*
state that he is _one_ of the greatest ever, and was highly
influential (partially due to the other three guys he played
with).  We clear on that?  :)

>  Hell, Micheal Lee is as good as Bonham ever was.

You're stretching here.  Come on, tell me this is just a Red
Herring...  :)  I'm likewise very impressed with Lee (as well as
Robert Plant's knack for finding completely brilliant yet
unheard-of drummers).  Lee sounds great playing Bonham's stuff.
Lee has yet to do *anything* on his own (in the way of
composition).  The jury is still a long way out from where Lee
ends up in comparison to the others mentioned here.  

>     One last note, it is difficult and dumb to judge a drummer
> on whether or not somone else can play their solos.

I think I see what you're saying here; and if so, I agree.

> It is the creating of the solos that matters not whether it can
> be repeated.  I am not a great drummer but I can play some
> Peart but that doesn't mean Peart isn't a great drummer.

I wholeheartedly agree with this.  I can likewise play *lots* of
Jimmy Page riffs on a guitar...  but I am likewise quite an
average (and *extremely* rusty) guitar player.  Now Page *is* the
best of all time.  :)  :)

[excerpts from my previous included below for reference]

> > However, I would never state, in some conclusive
> > way, that one is somehow quantitatively better than the other.
> > They were quite different, and their respective "fortes" were not
> > the same; ergo, it's not reasonable to quantitatively compare the
> > two with any conclusion.

> > Bonham is one of the greatest rock drummers ever.  This is hardly
> > questionable...  hence my surprise at your last comment.

- -- 
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