WARNING: long boring post about Jean.

[MrBlonde <mrblonde@xxxxxxxxx>]

Greetings Ones That Really Make Me Whirl And Twirl,

But let me tell you about my girl ...

WARNING: This post is long and boring and talks mainly about Jean.


Dan:

> I can't believe that on this list, with a collective on-line age 
> of about 10,000 years, we're still trading
> "best song" lists, "worst song" lists, arguing over "best guitarist". 
> Fascinating. The fact that any "Zep 

My opinion on the "ten best" posts is similar to yours, Dan, but I think
it's important that the list caters to all levels of experience, age,
maturity and Zeppelin obsession. Some people get a kick out of the
posts, and good luck to them. To some newbies, this may be the first
time they've come across such a thread. To others who have been around
for years, it's a tired thread that's not interesting. So just let it
wash over you and soon it will pass.


> fan" could put Trampled Underfoot on a worst list is mind boggling. 
> The only thing wrong with that song is
> that it didn't lead off the album. And these folks that basically 
> don't like Presence, In Through the 
> Outdoor and Coda...that's 1/3 of the catalog! I guess maybe there are 
> some people who think they should've 
> called it quits after the '75 tour.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: _Presence_ is my favourite
Zeppelin album! Maybe we should do a top ten thing ... ;-)


Killer:

> down the aisle to my front row seat with the lovely and funky Theolyn on 
> one arm -- resplendent in fiery red velvet hip huggers, four inch platform 
> shoes  (white leather with red stars on the sides) and white spandex tube 
> top - and the beguiling Aimsta, ever so nubile and tasty in black velvet 
> hip hugger bell bottoms topped with a purple suede vest (no bra) and purple 

It was the red stars that did it for me, you Tom Hanks lookin' muh-fuh.
Theolyn, put your best foot forward, baby ...


Jess:

said you loved me since you were ...

> Hmmm... well then... oh BTW, Bill looks like Gary Sinese.

I wanna be BIG.


Kevin:

> imo) Most underrated Zep tune:  Bring it on Home 

I like that toon, too. By the way, it's a lot better if you just include
a few relevant parts of the post you're referring to, rather than
including the whole post. It takes a little longer, but everyone will
appreciate it.


Carmilla:

Well hello to you Carmilla. I've never seen you post before and I notice
you have a hotmail account. Welcome to 'For Badgeholders Only', our
little Led Zeppelin mailing list. But .. (scratches head) .. pardon me
for asking, have you been around for some time? Your comments about Jean
Lorrah seem to come from long experience. Why haven't I seen your posts
before? Could it be that you don't want to reveal your real name?


> Absurd of you to think any of us give a rats ass.

Harshly said, but making a point that is not lost on a lot of people on
this list. To be fair, a lot of people on this list _like_ to be talked
down to by pseudo intellectuals. And that's OK, each to their own.


> Yap yap yap.  Tell us, Jean (since you have no difficulties in telling 
> us everything else) :  How does your endless meandering have anything to 
> do with this list?  With Led Zep?  With anyone's life except your own?  
> How meaningless do you have to be?  And (and this is the most important 
> question) why do you feel compelled to foist your uselessness on the 
> Badgeholders?  

Well again I take your points, but again it is most harshly put. There
are _lots_ of things said here that are totally unZeppelin related or
marginally related. The thing is, if it's said by someone I like then I
don't mind. But when it's said by someone who annoys me, I mind!
(Shrugs) Just let it be.

Now I've made clear my opinion on Jean many times since she joined the
list. I've alluded to her bombastic and self righteous style in public
and private notes. I've received more private posts from Badgeholders
discussing Jean's shortomings (and blessings) than almost any other
topic! 

But really, do her posturings hurt the eyes more than Jeremy's constant
passive aggressive Matt Murphyisms or Sharon's insanity? There's enough
space to hold all the flavours of Zeppelin fans out there, given a bit
of tolerance.


> If any of the members of this list give two shits about Jean's opinions, 
> and all her endless stories, and all the useless comments about her own 
> existance, by all means, tell her, and Jean will (I'm sure!) be more 
> than happy to inundate you with emails concerning every facet of her 
> life.  If, however, none of you care, and want Jean to keep her garbage 
> to herself, speak up!  I for one am sick and tired of this list being 
> nothing but the meanderings of every self-important windbag *ahem, Jean* 
> on the list!

Well I agree with everything you said and implied about Jean. But, you
know, if you get everything your own way, pretty soon you get bored. We
need diversity on the list, and for me personally, Jean is diametrically
opposed! We couldn't have more divergent opinions or viewpoints! So I
find it interesting to have her around.


> I love the postings about the best/worst/worst-best Zep songs; it's a 
> way to talk about the merits of the songs, and while there will never be 
> a difinitive list of THE WORST, I think we can all agree... Hot Dog 
> really does suck.  ;)

Well it started out as a joke, and actually the thread is operating on
different levels. One level is the juvenile listing without discussion.
Another level is learning which Zeppelin "flavours" some badgeholders
prefer. It's interesting to me to see the pro-ITTOD people and the
pre-1975 people meet. Also the cynic's view of _Thank You_ and _
Tangerine_ compared to the believer's. Sort of like watching the old TV
Batman series as an adult rather than a child.

Also, _Hot Dog_ is a great song!


Mighty Thor:

> Jean's letter to "Vegetable Man" was in response to something that was
> clearly covered by the spam/chain letter policy in the charter.  If she had
> not sent it, Jeremy or myself would have sent some variation on it.  (If

You're right. But Scott wasn't complaining about the intent of the
letter, but the way in which it was written and the hypocritical nature
of it.


> Scott, if you'd like to try to convince the rest of the committee that
> Jean's latest post is covered by that policy, please do so on the admin.
> list.

Ah, you do see the light! How diplomatic of you! I love you and desire
you, Thor. What does Theresa have that I don't, huh? Come to me, let us
call to Jimmy in time honoured tradition ...


V-Dogg:

Shaq is a pussy.


> Absurd of you to think that some of us don't.

You're right. But some of us don't.


> Jean has a much better idea of what it takes to create art (like the guys 
> in Led Zeppelin did) than I do, as she is a successful writer.

But so what? It has nothing to do with Led Zeppelin. I think the
criticism of Jean here is that her marginally Zepp related posts are
self serving and cause vomiting sessions akin to Bonzo's last moments.

I think you're reacting to the harsh way that Jean has been criticised,
rather than what was meant by the harsh words.


> Nope, "Hot Dog" rules.  

Well they just rolled my doll right out the door ...


Tabitha:

> Ah, I suppose it would take a member of the "pointlessness brigrade" to
> know one, n'est-ce pas? 

Witty. Constructive.


> What Jean was trying to do was to give an example of why no one HAS TO
> BE A MUSICIAN to appreciate Led Zeppelin. 

Correct.  What she was also doing, in familiar fashion, was to write
self serving stuff, this time about her writing) which is what attracted
the criticism. There has been no argument from anyone that you must be a
musician to enjoy Led Zeppelin.


> What I consider pointless is the fact that you and the rest of the
> "complainers", as I have dubbed you, like to sit upon your little
> thrones and denounce others on the list for "the juvenile content". As
> it may be. I do not disagree. Call Jean self-important? And just who is
> calling the kettle black, hmmmm?

I challenge your charge of 'pointless'. The point is that Jean writes
self serving and marginally related things to the list quite a bit.

By using the 'complainers' tag you are attempting to divide the list
into those who never give an opinion contrary to your own and those who
agree with you. Why not simply give your own counter opinion and
reasoning  without resorting to using devices like '... little thrones
...'? By doing so you amuse those who already agree with you and
alienate those who don't. So you achieve nothing, if you follow my
drift.

Further, if you don't see that Jean is self-important in some of her
posts, then your perception is seriously lacking. If others are guilty
of the same thing, then that's another matter. I myself am the humblest
of men ;-)


> While I may see your point, I DON'T see the point of the complaining and
> the insults back-and-forth. If you don't like the content of this list,
> change it. Complaining isn't going to improve it. Action will.

I agree with you that a positive contribution is the best response to a
post that annoys you. But from my point of view, Jean and some others
bombard the list with stuff that I find annoying. I can only absorb so
much without making some form of complaint or suggestion for change! Do
you seriously think Jean will change her style because Paul Holdren
posts a great convert review or Jeff posts a new SOTD?

I think some challenge to Jean's style and volume is appropriate. I
think the challenge could have been more diplomatic and less public ...


Pablo:

> I hate to see members of the list get pounced on and insulted like this for
> virtually no reason.  If you have a problem with Jean's posts, just let her

Well I think I've harped on about the reason enough by now. I think
there _is_ plenty of reason to discuss Jean's posts.


> know in private e-mail.  I'm sure if you had let her know in a more

And I agree it could have been discussed in a more contructive and less
confronting way.


> civilized, constructive fashion she would have been much more receptive. Go
> vent your anger out in some other way.

Well I disagree with you there. I think a public show of just how many
Badgeholders are annoyed by Jean's posts is the only thing that might
prompt her to modify her approach. She certainly hasn't responded to any
gentle (or not so gentle) hints from Billy, David or myself over the
years.

And venting anger is a very valid thing to do. Especially at the cause
of it.


Debra:

> I_strongly_suggest you learn how to use the delete key.

I've heard this argument so many times and it still doesn't satisfy me.
I get FBO in digest mode, so I really don't have the option of just
deleting Jean's posts without reading them. Can you see that your
suggestion isn't the quick cure it seems?


> It's one thing to disagree with another member's opinion but quite 
> another when you take that disagreement beyond the topic of 
> discussion and into the personal realm.  It's at that point that you 

You're right. Maybe it's born out of frustration?


(if you let them).  What you need to understand is that while you 
> might find Jean's posts infuriating....  there are_many_of us who
> know her, appreciate the time and effort she put into helping this 
> list come into being and actually enjoy reading her posts.

I accept that. But there's quite a few people who prefer cancer of the
bowel to reading her stuff, too. And surely that's a valid point of
view? If someone put forward that same point of view, but without
personal attacks, then would you be satisified?


Jeremy:

Regarding your points about why you don't have to be a musician to enjoy
Zep, I repeat that this is not the point of the mysterious Carmilla's
post. Mrs Parker-B is complaining about the pontification that Jean gets
up to. You've missed the point.


> OK you can gfo start your own little moderated list for someone who thinks
> your way, the whole idea of this list is to share opinions, share opinions
> about how we shouldn;t share opinions, etc, so as far as I am concerned,
> your post is just as welcome as Jean's, however I welcome Jeans and enjoy
> Jeans, I welcome yours and don't enjoy it. Not to worry, this isn;t a
> flame, but I don't see what the point is of trying to change everything
> that this list was created to be against. If you want a Lorrahless list,
> do this:
> send email to listserv@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> and type subscribe zeppelin-l in the subject
> Then you'll get your moderated list.

Isn't this just kneejerk rhetoric? And why bring Digital Grafitti into
all this? This seems to be a divisive comment, given that DG died a
lonely death months ago.


The accused herself .. Jean most high:

>         I should not have to explain my actions, as anyone who has read the
> charter and knows that I am on the administrative committee understands that
> they are a  responsibility of committee membership.  However, we seem to

:-)

As I understand Carmilla's nasty criticism of you, she(?) accused you of
self importance. Replying to Scott by saying that 

1. You shouldn't have to _stoop_ to explaining your actions and
2. Reminding everyone just how seriously you take your role as committee
member

seems to me to be a risky path to take.


> have a number of newcomers (and some original members) who do not know these
> facts, so I will state them _once_.  If you wish to discuss them further,

More condescending rhetoric which fails to acknowledge the nature of the
criticism directed at you. 


>         If you dislike any posts on the list, including mine, use your

As stated above, the old 'delete key' argument is not a quick fix that
solves all problems. Could it be that some of the criticisms have merit?
Even a little merit? Could it be that you could modify your online
behaviour just a little? Or are you positive that you're right? Think
about it.


> delete key.  If you are a newcomer afraid to post for fear of attracting
> negative responses, remember all the negative reviews that the members of
> Led Zeppelin shrugged off over the years.

Yes, and consider that comparing Jean's posts and the music of Led
Zeppelin is something that happens a lot around here, at least when
Jean's in town.  ;-)

Seriously newbies, form your own opinions and post without fear. The
vast majority of people on FBO can tolerate a wide diversity of opinion.
So much fuss has been made of Jean's posts because of the volume of
them! If her sins (alleged sins?) came less frequently, I doubt there
would be any fuss.


> We are fam-i-ly!

Well at least she is a good trader and has a sense of humour! Glad to
see you use it Jean.


Ed:

> broad assumptions about how everyone else on the list feels. Because Bill
> McCue has publically said negative things about Jean, that means it is very
> cool to do so. Making fun of Jean on the list will raise your esteem in the
> eyes of the other list members, because Bill said so. Mainly, try to

Well I think that is off the mark. Scott has had some criticisms to
make, and I don't see Billy worship as the motive. I've criticised Jean
before and I'll do it again, but emulating Billy is not my motive. I
mean, I want him and all, but that's different.

I don't think the purpose was to ridicule Jean, but to point out to her
just how much some of her behaviour annoys some people. And I think that
is a valid thing to say.

I agree that the Carmilla post was rude, harsh and could have been said
a lot nicer. Jean has her faults, but is always polite and is reported
to be a very nice lady in person. So the tone of the note was
inappropriate and the cussing did not help. But I still think the thrust
of the note is valid, and I don't think the reason for it is to 'be like
Billy' or to gain esteem in the eyes of Badgeholders.

Shit, the Carmilla post comes from another annoymous account and sounds
to me like one of us long timers who just didn't want to be known.


Nathan:

> intelligence and wit.  Jean is, at least in MY opinion, one of the more
> interesting posters on this list, and I look forward to what she has to
> say.  You, on the other hand, apparently have NOTHING to add except a

Hey, we agree on most things but I gotta disagree with you on this. The
post was rude, but it hit close to the mark, I reckon.


Killer:

> 1. Public props and a shout out to Carmilla. Amen, sister. I couldn't have 
> said it any better. 

Well, love of the witty one liner aside, you could have said it better.
The better you put it, the less ancilliary criticisms you attract.
Consider that the basic message was largely ignored in favour of
defending Jean's motherhood statement about not having to be a musician
to like Zeppelin.

Also, a public challenge to Carmilla. Who are you really?


Bruno:

> Ciao Jean and all!

Ciao Bruno baby!


> Every *true* Badgeholder (and ex-DGer) knows Jean's posts as some of the
> most interesting and meaningful msgs.

Um ... sorry to blow your theory, but ... there are a lot of XDG and
FBOers considered to be 'heavies' who just don't agree.


Paul:

> palace shows... for as we all know, Brits loved American pimps,
> particularly in the 70s.

Ahh, dry wit! I salute you, Paul, for a fine effort!


> 5.) Bill McCue's posts make the rest of this list look like a chicken
> that got caught in a tractor's nuts. 

:-D   Can't stop laughing .. just trying to visualise this! I never
realised that tractors had gender!


Jennifer:

> like her posts, how hard is it to delete them?  Gotta be easier than trying 
> to shut her up ;)

:-)


Chris:

> Jean has been a long-time contributor to the list. I'll admit that I
> agree with very little that she writes. Unlike you, I understand that
> there's a difference between what she writes and who she is. I might
> question the validity of her ideas, but I've never questioned her right
> to post on the list. I think it would be a much duller place without
> her.

You right.


Kristopfer:

> I, for one, find Jean's posts insightful.  At least she puts some intelligent
> thought into her posts before she presses the "send" key.  I would much
> rather read her posts than some lame-brained monologue berating another list
> member.  

(shrug) there's a buyer for every car. That's the way it is supposed to
be. If we all agreed it would be boring, right?

I agree that Jean puts thought into her posts. I think if she thought a
little about some of the criticisms her posts would be more enjoyable
than they are now.

Also, it's hard for posts to be anything but monologues ;-)


- -=[ Kenny ]=-